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PUBLIC VIEWPOINT Will We Lose It To Nonbelievers?

Posted: January 4, 2013 at 2:23 a.m.

Dr. Erwin Lutzer wrote a book with a powerful message just in the title: “Failure: The Back Door to Success.” His point was a failure or defeat is often the very thing God uses to open the door to victory in unforeseen ways.

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Opinion, Pages 5 on 01/04/2013

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I do believe the main problem of America today is we are morally bankrup which is probably the reason we are fiscally bankrupt. The loss of morals has led to many other problems, if not all of them.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 4, 2013 at 11:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Mr. Cooper - Christians do not now, nor have they ever "had" this country to lose. This country was founded to be held by Americans. It was founded, among other reasons, so that one particular faith could not set policy for other faiths. I would guess that there may be some Puritan practices you may not be fond of. Fortunately, we are free to worship (or not) as we see fit. Scripture says that it our responsibility to work out our own salvation. We certainly don't need the government to determine what is sinful and what is not.

Phillipians 2:12 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Posted by: superdave10

January 4, 2013 at 1:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Amazing that COOPER could publish his screed in a nation that is "criminalizing God’s word..."
Simply amazing.

I think screeds like COOPER's appear by the thousands all across this nation, daily it seems.

Posted by: cdawg

January 4, 2013 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

RE "Will we indeed lose it to nonbelievers?"
Mr. Cooper lost it a long time ago, and nonbelievers had nothing to do with it.

.RE "Our Creator is a jealous God, and why shouldn’t He be?"
Because jealousy is an unfortunate human trait, not a characteristic of a loving, judicious god. Of course this is a result of man's creating God in his own image. Why are jealousy, petulance, and irrational rage good in a god but bad in a human?

A related and preemptive note:
"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." --Anne Lamott

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 4, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Well said, superdave...

Posted by: Dexter

January 4, 2013 at 11:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

"The difference between you and God is that God doesn't think He's you."....Anne Lamont

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 5, 2013 at 3:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Hiram: "Our Creator is a jealous God, and why shouldn’t He be?">>

Who's he jealous of?

Posted by: fayfreethinker

January 6, 2013 at 6:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

superdave - "Scripture says that it our responsibility to work out our own salvation"

That doesn't mean we can make our own laws. After we believe in Christ, we are to work out our questions, but we are always to follow the word of God. Christians are to obey the law of the land, but they are held to an even greater standard. To some drinking is a sin, to other Christians, some drinking is fine. To some not going to church is a sin, to other Christians, it is not. Those are some questions that we, as Christians, need to work out for ourselves. There is freedom in Christ, but whatever the Holy Spirit convicts YOU of being sin, that is sin to you.

AlphaCat -"Why are jealousy, petulance, and irrational rage good in a god but bad in a human?"

If God wasn't so long-suffering and patient with us, He'd have wiped us out a long time ago. He wants all saved, so waits. He gives us free will and does not interfere. He is jealous of the made-up gods that takes His creation (us) away from Him. This world belongs to the prince of this world, satan. If we come to God, he will hear our prayers and we will hear His voice, the Holy Spirit. Bad things happen because of evil. There is constant war in heaven and on earth right now. But one day He will reign and evil will be wiped out.

Now you don't need to go to church. I just gave you a pretty good sermon.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 6, 2013 at 8:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Isn't human perspective amazing? Mr Cooper apparently doesn't recognize that Muslims, Jews, and many others believe that Christians are the "Unbelievers".

Believe what you want but don't expect others to also believe it...that is true religious freedom American style (at least per the Constitution).

Posted by: ajm

January 6, 2013 at 9:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

God is black hole poop. When a black hole injests enough galaxies, it can no longer contain its own mass. From the darkness comes the light and all the physical laws are created for us to discover. Other black holes may explode and create other worlds with different physical laws that may prevent us from observing them. Our God is a God of laws, not a petulant intercessionary that may listen to the "chosen ones".

Posted by: Mikeej

January 6, 2013 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

"Man is born broken, He lives by mending. The grace fo God is glue.".....Anne Lamont

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 6, 2013 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Hiram: "Our Creator is a jealous God..."
FFT: "Who is he jealous of?"

Could there be more than one creator, each accusing the others of not being the true god?

Something has to account for all this god diversity found in these terrestrial realms.

"God has created man in his image and we have more than returned the favor." --Betty Bowers

Posted by: cdawg

January 6, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Theology, like many other things, would be wonderful...if it weren't for people!

Posted by: ajm

January 6, 2013 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

mycentworth--

RE "If God wasn't so long-suffering and patient with us, He'd have wiped us out a long time ago."
It is entirely possible to be patient without being jealous. In fact, patience is more effective without jealousy. In any case, that doesn't answer my question.

RE "He is jealous of the made-up gods that takes His creation (us) away from Him."
Jealousy is covetousness, which is prohibited by more than one version of the Ten Commandments. If these commandments are intended to bring us closer to God, why does God reserve a prohibited behavior to himself-- particularly an emotional state that interferes with communion?

RE "Now you don't need to go to church. I just gave you a pretty good sermon."
Insofar as a sermon is an address given with the specific intention of solidifying confirmation bias, you have given a pretty good sermon. However, as a sermon's target audience is usually a group whose beliefs are already somewhat skewed, it doesn't apply to my question.

You're welcome to take another stab at providing an answer to my question. You could try "Because God says so"-- the usual last resort of people whose scriptures don't stand up to scrutiny-- but in case you do so, here is my next question:
Assuming you wouldn't want to be around people who act like that, what kind of sad case would you have to be to take up with a god who acts like that? Codependency is no way to run morality.

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 6, 2013 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Well, seeing a letter in the paper by Hiram Cooper, I didn't read it. I am already pretty familiar with Cooper's general ideas.
However the comments were fairly interesting.

Posted by: Coralie

January 6, 2013 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

AlphaCat God is our creator. He is our father, in other words. Do you know a father that would want his children to love someone more than they do him? The one that created them, even died for them. His jealousy is not like human jealousy.

We can't be good enough on our own to qualify as sinless. I guess that is codependency - needing the forgiveness through the cross.

I probably didn't answer your question in the way you want, but I don't think I can. I just accept. It doesn't bother me that God is a jealous God. I do not think I am in a position to judge God.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 6, 2013 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I do not believe in a God who has human attributes.
If I did, it would be a kind and loving one.

Posted by: Coralie

January 6, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

He is loving and kind, but just and righteous also. It is your choice to believe in Him or not.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 6, 2013 at 5:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

mycentworth--

RE "Do you know a father that would want his children to love someone more than they do him?"
Most fathers are happy to have their children take spouses whom they love more than they love him. A father who gets his panties in a wad because his children love others is in charge of a dysfunctional family. Do you know a competent father who would disown or kill his children out of jealousy?

I also note that a lot of conservatives seem to view God as an absentee father: He doesn't go where He's not wanted. and so on. As such, does he deserve to be loved-- especially under the threat of one's current or supposed future life?

RE "He is loving and kind, but just and righteous also."
Until you cross Him-- then He becomes petty and vindictive. Unfortunately for your characterization-- which is supposedly His own characterization of Himself, as it comes straight from the Bible-- jealous, spiteful hissy-fits are not loving, kind, just or righteous. They are abusive.

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 6, 2013 at 6:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

AlphaCat - How wrong and disparaging is your view. God is always there to forgive His children, no matter what they have done. Some things are hard to understand, but He is God.

There is a satan, who has constantly fought against God and all that is good since the beginning. This world belongs to him, the Bible says. He is a great deceiver. Just look at this world, many things that happen are not of God.

If you would just focus on God and His love, I think you would change your view. You will be in my prayers, AlphaCat.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 7, 2013 at 8:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Almost the worst story of all is Abraham and Isaac.
A father cherishes his only son, the child of his old age, so God orders him to murder the child as a sacrifice. Then God stays his hand at the last minute--it was all just to test Abraham's obedience to God.
There are so many things wrong with that story that by itself, it should turn somebody away from literal belief in the Bible.

Posted by: Coralie

January 7, 2013 at 1:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

RE "If you would just focus on God and His love, I think you would change your view. You will be in my prayers, AlphaCat. "
If you would just focus on reality instead of wishful thinking, I think you would change your view. The rest of the universe and I wait for you to join us.

RE "You will be in my prayers, AlphaCat. "
Thank you, I think. I just hope you will take to heart their complete failure to affect anything, and govern yourself accordingly.

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 7, 2013 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Coralie, God sends His message in the way he wants. Abraham and Isaac signifies the giving up of His son, J.C. God is God, who are we to say what He should or shouldn't do. Tell Him about it, I'm sure you will have the opportunity.

AlphaCat - I am a realist. I have been a Christian my whole life, but in my 20's, I became more sensitive to God than ever. I know He is real, and just watching what is happening in the world today convinces me more than ever. I am not afraid of this world, just disgusted by it.

If you ever change you mind about God, please let me know. I very well believe you and Coralie may do so. I hope so. That will be my prayer.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 7, 2013 at 4:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

"A knowledge of the existence of somehting we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."....Albert Einstein

Obviously, AlphaCat and Coralie have a profound knowledge of that existence that even Einstein could not penetrate. I am in awe.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 7, 2013 at 5:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

RE "Obviously, AlphaCat and Coralie have a profound knowledge of that existence that even Einstein could not penetrate. I am in awe."
Einstein was talking about his spirituality-- a component of religion-- not about religion itself. You can climb out of your awe now.

More relevant to this discussion:
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God." --Albert Einstein, from "The Human Side", 1954

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 7, 2013 at 6:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I agree with Einstein on his second quote, also. I, also cannot conceive of personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals.-----that concept is called "free will".

God does not or never will sit in judgment on His creation. Man his judged himself as guilty and with that guilty consience feels his own need to repent.

Einstien adds that he cannot concieve of this despite the theroretical raw science that might prove otherwise with has been cast in doubt by modern discoveries.

Einstein's religion consists in a humble admiration of the invinitely spirit that reveils itself in the small and week beings that we are. Because of mans weak and passing understands, we cannot understand reality. Without reality, therefore morality is of the highest of human traits in the order of importhance, this is for us, God is excluded from this order of importance. His highest trait is reality.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 7, 2013 at 8:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Einstein is an interesting and billiant physicist. Even though I am German, I am not up to his level. for sure. But, the following verses come to mind:

1 Corinthians 1:17-25
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[ foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 8, 2013 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

If the point you are making is that the Apostle Paul was an interesting and brilliant theologian and that Einstien was an equaliy interesting and brilliant physicist, then I disagree. The Apostle Paul's thoughts and writings were God inspired, Einstien did it on his own.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 8, 2013 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

No, I said EINSTEIN was an interesting & brilliant theologian/physicist, BUT Paul said that 'the foolishness of God is wiser than men"( including Einstein). Einstein is no match for God. Without the cross, there is no salvation. There will be judgement on His own creation, because man can be evil. I don't believe Einstein believed in the salvation through Jesus Christ.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 8, 2013 at 5:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I don't think Einstein was a theologian at all, at least he didn't thing of himself as being one. Einstien was actually a Jew and didn't think of Jesus as anything but a wise Prophet. Kinda the same view of our local theologian, the false prophet, Grisham. You are right MY about the Cross, but the problem is that most people don't want salvation. Its kinda like a buffet, take it or leave it.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 8, 2013 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I have to admit, I know little about Einstein, except that he is revered as very intellectual. I do know that it is hard for those that want to understand everything and reason everything out to accept what the Bible says. Somethings you just have to accept. That is why I liked what Paul said in Corinthians about the cross is foolishness to Gentiles; a stumbling block to Jews,etc. True, it is a take it or leave it, but I don't like the consequences for the latter.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 8, 2013 at 6:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I understand what you are saying mycentworth and Moneymyst. Corithinians puts it in a very good perspective for why it is almost illogical to try to change the minds of people like alphacat, Coralie, superdave, and fayfreethinker. I understand what you are saying; however, my eyes have been opened to the gospel (the good news). Right now, the others are blind (even though they think they see). I can't fault them for being blind, but we can pray that their eyes are opened. However, no amount of our trying to use logic and rational reasonings with the others on this thread will convince them. I have tried before to no avail. However, the discussions have helped me to be better at defending the faith. Take care and keep up the good fight.

Posted by: rflow

January 9, 2013 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

rflow - There is a verse that tells us after 1 or 2 times of sharing the good news of salvation, to move on if the person does not accept it. I just don't know the book.

I enjoy debate as long as it is civil. Like you said, others read the threads, also. The fight is getting heated because I think most feel something is going on in the world today. No one knows exactly when Christ will return, but He will.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 9, 2013 at 11:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" --Karl Marx
I know this to be true because it appears in various forms in several books, and there are even more books with similar quotations from other writers. The sentiment has everything that any Bible verse offers, and more: it is relevant and verifiable.

Posted by: AlphaCat

January 9, 2013 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

The words of Jesus"

"If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."....Luke 9:5

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 9, 2013 at 3:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Right, moneymyst.

AlphaCat - Karl Marx was just a man with an opinion. My belief in the message of the Bible is not a religion - it is verified history written by eye witnesses in the time of Jesus and before.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 9, 2013 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I would come nearer to beliving that "sports" is the opiate of the masses, at least around here. I would be very disapointed if everthing in the Bible were verifiable, that would take belief out of the faith category and into the science category. The Bible is not relevant except to those who believe. Even Webster's Dictionary is irrelevant to those who do not believe it.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 9, 2013 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

I agree, Moneymyst, but much of the Bible has been verified, but faith is needed.

I could name a lot of other opiums other than sports this nation indulges in. I would say to the point of idolatry.

Posted by: mycentworth

January 9, 2013 at 3:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

You are right there, my. Anything put before God is idolatry, and I will confess, I do so and repent of it. My friends just call me Money and my enemies call me .......!. Can't spell that its not in the spell checker vocabulary.

Posted by: Moneymyst

January 9, 2013 at 5:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal )